Chuck Todd and William Taylor
Chuck Todd, Ambassador William B. Taylor Discuss Ukraine, Journalism, and Accountability
By Elaine Pasquini
Washington: On June 1, NBC News political director Chuck Todd, engaged in a candid discussion with William B. Taylor, vice president and director of the Europe and Russia Center at the United States Institute of Peace, on the topic of exposing atrocities in Ukraine and the relationship between reporting and accountability.
Asked about the United States providing advanced rockets to Ukraine – the Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) – Taylor, former US ambassador to Ukraine, said the “unjustified, unprovoked invasion of Ukraine by Russia,” – which is into its fourth month – has shifted in location and tactics such that these longer range weapons are more important now than they were in the beginning. “The MLRS has been on the Ukrainians’ minds for months because of the change in terrain and tactics,” he added.
The Ukrainians won the battle in the north, Taylor explained, but now it is “edging toward an uncomfortable stalemate…and it is grim for Ukraine right now.”
Despite concerns by Russia, the Ukrainians are not interested in utilizing the MLRS to bomb inside Russia, the ambassador said. “They are interested in stopping the bombardment of their frontline troops. And this weapons system can start to stop it and give them the ability in certain places.”
Since the Russians possess more artillery and ammunition than the Ukrainians, “we won’t know if the Ukrainians have enough until they win,” Taylor said.
Responding to Todd’s question of whether NATO and the EU would look back and regret that they didn’t do enough, Taylor stated: “We may look back and regret what we didn’t do at the beginning of the war.” Noting that the intelligence services were right about Russia’s intentions when they were amassing 170,000 troops on three sides of Ukraine, they were nonetheless “surprised on how strong the Ukrainian response was,” he said.
On the question of regime change in Russia, according to Taylor, President Biden has been clear that the US goal is a “free, independent, democratic, sovereign and prosperous Ukraine,” not regime change in Russia, which is a matter for the Russian people.
With respect to accountability, if President Vladimir Putin and his whole chain of command are to be held accountable for these war atrocities, Taylor insisted, “they first have to lose.”
Although international journalists in Ukraine are not under the control of any government, they are trying to be objective in documenting the horror committed by Russian soldiers, Taylor said. “This war is not morally ambiguous; this war is clear.”
Different mechanisms have been set up for war crimes accountability, Taylor continued, including the Treaty of Rome, which set up the International Criminal Court. Although the United States and Russia are not members of this treaty, Ukrainians have signed on to it without actually signing the treaty.
Todd commented that since Russia is a permanent member of the Security Council it feels that Russia is out of reach of the ICC and “really kind of untouchable and that this is a flaw in the UN charter.”
Taylor agreed, and noted that removing a permanent member of the Security Council is currently a subject of much debate.
Todd and Taylor discussed the problem of Europe’s continuing dependence on Russian energy, noting $1 billion a day is still going to Russia from Europe.
If Europe succeeds in its plan to cut this by two-thirds or 90 percent, that number will go down and weaken the Russian economy, Taylor pointed out.
If not, Todd argued, “History will write that Europe is both fighting and funding at the same time.”
“Hopefully, they will phase out the funding and that seems to be the direction they are going,” Taylor added. “…but it will be a major transformation of their economies.”
In response to Todd’s suggestion that this war would most probably put Ukraine in the EU at a minimum, as well as NATO, Taylor noted Ukraine’s membership request to the EU is already being fast-tracked.
The ambassador posited that the best guarantee to ensure that Ukraine or other states are not invaded is for countries to join NATO. “It is obvious Putin does not want this fight with NATO…which is why Sweden and Finland joining is such a big deal for the Baltics – Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia,” he opined. “It is possible to defend the Baltics if Sweden and Finland are members. If France and Germany had not objected to Ukraine joining NATO in 2008, we wouldn’t be where we are today. Russia would not have invaded.”
Finally, on the question of what “winning” looks like for Ukraine, Taylor stated that “winning is the defense of – and the continuing existence of – a democratic, independent, sovereign, prosperous Ukraine that can continue to develop economically.”
The prosperous part, he explained, suggests that a free Ukraine needs to have access to the Black Sea. “They need to have Odessa…although it does not have to be all of Ukraine as it was prior to 2014,” he said, when Russia invaded Crimea.
Ukraine has been strengthened over the last three months, Taylor said. The country is unified in its support for President Volodymyr Zelensky, a true representative of the Ukrainian people. Ukraine is determined to be sovereign, democratic, free and prosperous. “They have been…trying to be democratic for the last 30 years,” Taylor said. “They do not want to go back under the thumb and control of an oppressive Russia. So, they are fighting for their freedom.”
(Elaine Pasquini is a freelance journalist. Her reports appear in the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs and Nuze.Ink.)
