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Sunday, May 22, 2011
Errors in ‘most wanted’ list embarrassing: Chidambaram
Indian Home Minister P Chidambaram speaks with CNN-IBN’s Karan Thapar about Pakistan-India relations and a list of “most wanted” fugitives India handed to Pakistan earlier this year. Here is the text of the interview:Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil’s Advocate and a special interview with the Home Minister P Chidambaram.
Mr Chidambaram, let’s start with the revelation that at least two out of the 30 odd Indians who you believe are fugitives from justice hiding in Pakistan turn out to be living in Mumbai. I’m talking specifically about Wazhul Kamar Khan and Feroze Abdul Rashid Khan. Has this embarrassed the Home Ministry?
P Chidambaram: Obviously, it embarrasses the Ministry of Home Affairs. We rely on lists given by the CBI, which is the Interpol’s National crime division. They maintain the list of most wanted against whom red corner notices are given. Please remember, both mistakes occurred in one part of the list, namely the red corner notices, and that is a list prepared by the CBI. It is embarrassing, it is regrettable. Since the list was handed over formally by the Home Secretary, we have taken, what I would call constructive responsibility.
Karan Thapar: Now newspaper and television reports suggest that there is a third person on that list given to Pakistan, a certain CN Bashir, who is not in Pakistan, but in Sharjah, and there are television channels saying that the CBI has a different list of most wanted where three people are dead and their red corner notices have not been withdrawn. Overall, looking at the government as a whole, not just the Home Ministry, all the agencies, people say this is incompetence.
P Chidambaram: Well, that’s a very harsh word. It’s a mistake, or two mistakes. Now Bashir, that’s speculation. He may have been in Pakistan. He may have moved out of Pakistan. These fugitives don’t stay in one place. They move from country to country. So that’s speculation. The mistakes have occurred in the red corner notices list and the CBI has owned up the mistake and the MHA has accepted constructive responsibility. Now if you want to raise it to the level of incompetence, that’s your call.
Karan Thapar: Speaking specifically about Wazhul Kamar Khan and Feroze Abdul Rashid Khan, the list handed at the of March by your Home Secretary to the Pakistan Interior Secretary, specifically said that they were fugitives from justice hiding in Pakistan. Do you think your ministry owes these two gentlemen an apology?
P Chidambaram: They were fugitives from justice.
Karan Thapar: Not in March though.
P Chidambaram: No, wait a minute. I said they were. Red corner notices were indeed issued to them. Subsequently they were arrested. So, it’s not right to exonerate them at this stage. They are accused in grave charges. The mistake was, not removing their names from the red corner notices’ list and consequently the mistake of including them in the list handed over by the Home Secretary. But I think you are carrying the mistake too far to say that they are innocent people.
Karan Thapar: I’m not saying they’re innocent. I never said that at all. Now what I was saying is that they are aam aadmi Indian citizens and this is a government in the name of aam aadmi. Yet you have handed over to a foreign government, a list which claims that as of March 2011, these people are fugitives from justice, on that date, they weren’t, that they are hiding in Pakistan, innocence - this has deliberated their name. Do we not owe them an apology?
P Chidambaram: No. I don’t think this is a case where we owe anyone an apology. If we owe an apology, if we owe a regret, it’s the regret that we have expressed, that there was a genuine human error in not updating the list. To that extent I think we have expressed regret, and we remain regretful. But I think you are carrying the argument too far.
Karan Thapar: What about the implications in the eyes of the Pakistanis of what the Press in India call goof-ups, as you know, Pakistan is already dismissive of India’s claim that it protects fugitives from Indian justice. Now after these goof-ups have emerged, Pakistan will be even more dismissive of your lists. Doesn’t that worry you?
P Chidambaram: I doubt it. You see these lists have been exchanged in 2004, in 2007, in 2011, Pakistan has always been dismissive of the lists given in 2004 and 2007.
Karan Thapar: But it didn’t have proof of mistakes at that time, now it does.
P Chidambaram: They never acted on any list. In fact I asked the Home Secretary what is this ritual of exchanging lists when they never act on this list. They give us a list and most of those names, we flatly deny are in India. They give lists of people allegedly for minting trouble in Balochistan and elsewhere, and we reject it. So I think it is a genuine mistake, in fact, I wonder why we are exchanging these lists over the last 7-8 years, but that’s been a practice.
Karan Thapar: So if I understand you correctly, you are saying both countries ignore each other’s lists and if there are mistakes found on the Indian list, it’s not going to make Pakistan more dismissive than it has anyway been of our list?
P Chidambaram: As I said, it’s embarrassing, but it’s not something that will change the dynamics of the relationship between India and Pakistan or the status of the discussions between India and Pakistan because Pakistan has always been dismissive of these lists.
Karan Thapar: As you say, it is embarrassing and one of the other concerns is that in the eyes of the western Press, many of which are in fact our allies against Pakistan on the issue of terror, this has perhaps made India a bit of a laughing stalk. Let me quote to you the headline of the BBC on Friday, “A huge lapse in intelligence gathering in India,” which must be making people laugh. Doesn’t it worry you that the western Press may be now in a sense, cocking a scoop at us?
P Chidambaram: I think you are exaggerating. I think the criticism is deserved, but I think it’s disproportionate. Please remember, the BBC used the word ‘lapse’. Let’s move on.
Karan Thapar: Alright, but lapse is a euphemism.
P Chidambaram: No, lapse is an English word that correctly describes a human error.
Karan Thapar: And what about the government’s credibility at home, the Leader of the Opposition in the Rajya Sabha has publicly said that before the government can wage a war on terror, it needs to wage a war on error.
P Chidambaram: Good play of words. I congratulate him on that. But if you want a standard for incompetence as I pointed out, I think the standard is, the Home Minister of the day admitted that three terrorists were taken out of Indian prisons and flown by the foreign minister to Pakistan without its knowledge.
Karan Thapar: But would you really as Home Minister of the UPA exonerate a lapse on the ground as an NDA lapse is later?
P Chidambaram: No, I won’t. I said there must be some room for political exchanges. So if that was the beginning of a political exchange, then they must also accept a political rejoinder. When I came back from Tripura, I was the first to immediately call the Press and say we take responsibility.
Karan Thapar: And I acknowledge that you did it immediately on your return, but do you also accept that this has damaged the government’s credibility, even if in a small part, if not in a big way?
P Chidambaram: I don’t think it damages credibility, I think it’s a wake up call to the agencies, to become more professional.
Karan Thapar: Are you worried that in the coming few days you may discover more of what the Press called goof-ups, that there may be more than just two people on that list of 50 given to Pakistan, who turn up to be in India?
P Chidambaram: Well, I hope not, because the NIA, which was under the Home Ministry directly, gave a list of ten names and they have given in writing that all ten are believed to be fugitives from justice abroad. Now the CBI discovers more mistakes, well I would be sorry for them, but I hope there are no mistakes.
Karan Thapar: You mentioned the NIA that comes directly under Home Ministry, in fact, it is said that the NIA is responsible for a certain Rajkumar Maygen is present on a different CBI list, but actually has been in jail.
P Chidambaram: No, no. Maygen’s arrest is known to everyone. Maygen’s arrest has been published. The Manipur government wanted him put in the list, again, it’s the Interpol division of CBI, which did not update that list and remove Maygen. Is it anybody’s case that Maygen’s arrest was not known?
Karan Thapar: So many of theses lapses originate with the Interpol division of the CBI. What does the government propose to do about the CBI?
P Chidambaram: I don’t know. That’s under the Ministry of Personnel and I’m sure that the Ministry of State for Personnel, sort of directly oversees, and I’ll use the word carefully because CBI has large degree of autonomy and I’m sure they will take steps to tone up the Interpol division. The director of CBI has already said that he has asked a special director to look into the Interpol division and thoroughly over all the Interpol division.
Karan Thapar: Now, Home Minister, something else that’s in the news is the trial of Tawahur Hussain Rana in Chicago, which is about to start, where David Headley will be a key witness. Do you as Home Minister of India believe that Rana and Headley have clearly established a link between 26/11 on the one hand and elements of the ISI or is it only a link with junior army officers in Pakistan, which is it?
P Chidambaram: No, of the five, who are being reigned or tried with Rana, we believe one is an ISI operative.
Karan Thapar: Which one is this?
P Chidambaram: Well, I am not going to take names in an interview. One is an ISI operative, and one has close links with the ISI. So I think the link with ISI is prima facie established, more than prima facie established, but it has to be proved in a trial.
Karan Thapar: Does the American government also accept that a link with the ISI is prima facie established?
P Chidambaram: I think so.
Karan Thapar: You have no doubts about that?
P Chidambaram: Because I have read the indictment and it says so.
Karan Thapar: Has either Washington or New Delhi formally communicated to Pakistan that a prima facie link between the 26/11 and the ISI has been established and if the answer is yes, what response have you got from Islamabad?
P Chidambaram: I don’t know what the US has told Pakistan, but I have told my counterpart, that we believe that not only non state actors, but state actors were behind 26/11 and the finger points to some people associated with ISI.
Karan Thapar: And what did Mr Malik say?
P Chidambaram: Well, of course he denied it.
Karan Thapar: But convincingly or was it only a pro-forma denial?
P Chidambaram: Well I’m not a mind reader, I can only say he denies it and I maintain my position.
Karan Thapar: Mr Chidambaram, let’s come to the American special operation in Abbottabad to kill Osama bin Laden. One of the questions that has arisen in India is does India have the ability and the capacity to carry out similar operations in Pakistan. Let me ask you bluntly. Do we have that ability?
P Chidambaram: I think this question is asked by people, who, naturally, are not aware of the special relationship between the US and Pakistan, and the special position which US security forces have already established in Pakistan. It’s that special relationship, the special position, which the US security forces enjoy in Pakistan, it’s the special privilege that is given to them that allowed them to carry out this exercise which, in every way was a brilliant exercise. We do not have those special privileges. Therefore, if the question is a theoretical question, Can Indian forces carry out a special operation in a country, under certain circumstances, that’s the way the question should be framed. I would say we have some capacity, but we have many constraints too.
Karan Thapar: Lt Gen Shuja Pasha, the head of the ISI, reportedly speaking to his National Assembly in Islamabad has said, that Pakistan has the contingency plan in place in case India carries out special operations. The targets have been identified, and what he calls rehearsals, undertaken. How do you as Home Minister respond to that?
P Chidambaram: I don’t attach too much credit to that statement. If that statement is true, if it’s not being denied subsequently, I think it’s just bluster.
Karan Thapar: Just bluster?
P Chidambaram: In his claim that they can retaliate in India against Indian targets, I think it’s bluster.
Karan Thapar: What do you make of the fact that he claims rehearsals have been done?
P Chidambaram: Same description.
Karan Thapar: I want to go back to your very careful measured answer to my first question. And I’m deliberately doing it after telling you what General Shuja Pasha is reported to have said. You have suggested that in the absence of the special facilities that America has in Pakistan, and given that India is not America, and Pakistan is likely to retaliate, we may have the theoretical capacity, but we would have to think very carefully and very and sagaciously before we order a special operation in Pakistan.
P Chidambaram: My statement was not in the context of Pakistan, I said, a country if you ask me theoretically, do we have the capacity to do it in ‘a’ country. So I was not talking about Pakistan at all. I think on Pakistan, the Prime Minister’s statement, although cryptic, encompasses everything. We are not the US.
Karan Thapar: We are not the US. Being a journalist, can I ask you to spell that out, what you’re really suggesting is that Pakistan would retaliate if we took action in a way in which it is unable to retaliate against the US and that retaliation could lead to something further, and that would be a cause of concern. Is that the correct spelling?
P Chidambaram: I would not say yes or no to that, but theoretically, all that you said, would be relevant considerations.
Karan Thapar: And, therefore, theoretically all this would weigh on the mind of the government were you ever in a position to consider such operations?
P Chidambaram: Theoretically again, Yes.
Karan Thapar: Let’s then come and broaden this discussion. Earlier this month it emerged that Osama bin Laden had been living, undetected, in a Pakistan garrison town, in the centre of urban Pakistan - Abbottabad, for 5 years or maybe more. It’s possible that beyond that he spent two further years, in a village in Northern Pakistan. What does that reveal about Pakistan to you?
P Chidambaram: It reveals that there are several power structures in Pakistan, that the civilian government is not in total control of neither information nor intelligence, and within the civilian government, perhaps there are people with asymmetric knowledge of what’s going on in the country.
Karan Thapar: When you say asymmetric knowledge, you mean some people are ignorant and others know a lot more.
P Chidambaram: Well I mean some know more than the others.
Karan Thapar: Let me put to you two blunt questions. As Home Minister, in your eyes, does the fact that Osama bin Laden was able to live in Abbottabad for 5 years without being detected, suggest Pakistani complicity on terror or incompetence in tackling terror?
P Chidambaram: No, I don’t think incompetence comes here. I think there is a certain degree of collaboration between certain power centres in Pakistan, which allowed Osama bin Laden to find a sanctuary in Pakistan. I would say I suspect collaboration.
Karan Thapar: Collaboration is a politer word than complicity, but it amounts to the same thing, doesn’t it?
P Chidambaram: Well, you judged that. I think someone collaborated with him.
Karan Thapar: To come to the other blunt question I want to ask you and it refers to what you call, the asymmetry in knowledge. What is the nature of the relationship that now emerges between the civilian authorities in Pakistan and the military, in particular I mean General Kayani and the ISI. Do you believe that at the end of the day, the real power vests with the military and the ISI?
P Chidambaram: It’s a very tense relationship. It’s a very unusual relationship. But we’ve always suspected that much of the power vests in the hands of the army and the agencies of the army like ISI, and relatively less power is in the hands of the civilian leaders.
Karan Thapar: Now recently, a peace-talks process with Pakistan has resumed. Those talks are actually happening with the civilian government. But do we believe that this time around, they are happening with the blessings or the approval of the military authorities in Pakistan?
P Chidambaram: Well I don’t know. I think they will allow a large degree of latitude for the peace talks, as long as it concerns issues like prisoners, fishermen, visa, cross-border trade, import-export and that kind of thing, but, whether they will allow latitude to the civilian government, to seriously engage in substantive issues, I can’t say, I doubt it.
Karan Thapar: There has been speculation in the western Press, The Times in England in particular, that India has established some sort of back-channel contact with General Kayani, which has given you some form of assurance, that the talks process will be meaningful. Is there any contact with General Kayani?
P Chidambaram: I don’t know and even if I did, I wouldn’t say it to you.
Karan Thapar: So which is the correct answer, you don’t know?
P Chidambaram: Both are correct.
Karan Thapar: Finally, has the fact that Osama bin Laden got away living in Pakistan undetected for 5 years, changed the security perception of Pakistan that you have as Home Minister?
P Chidambaram: Well it has to some extent, that if they can shelter someone so notorious as Osama bin Laden, then it confirms our suspicions that they are sheltering many more.
Karan Thapar: And it’s made you more wary?
P Chidambaram: And therefore, we have to be constantly on alert. We cannot afford to lower our vision. Therefore, we have to be prepared to face a situation where many other potential terrorists have found potential sanctuary in Pakistan. That’s the worry.
Karan Thapar: Home Minister, that is certainly a sentence that everyone will remember very clearly. Thank you very much for speaking to Devil’s Advocate.
P Chidambaram: Thank You.
Courtesy www.dailytimes.com.pk